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	<title>Comments on: Building someone else&#8217;s vision</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.position-relative.com/2007/01/getting-credited-for-website-projects/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.position-relative.com/2007/01/getting-credited-for-website-projects/</link>
	<description>web design &#38; development &#124; building my solo studio &#124; useful design resources</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 15 Mar 2010 06:07:24 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: debbie campbell</title>
		<link>http://www.position-relative.com/2007/01/getting-credited-for-website-projects/comment-page-1/#comment-33</link>
		<dc:creator>debbie campbell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Mar 2007 19:20:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.position-relative.com/~relat1ve/?p=45#comment-33</guid>
		<description>Ken - don&#039;t you think that as web designers we have a responsibility to tell the client when something may be a problem?

In this situation, it was not that the changes they wanted weren&#039;t aesthetic enough for my portfolio. It was that they hired me to help them get their retail business going online, and as a successful online retailer since 1998, in my opinion what they wanted was going to work against them.

I think my responsibility was to try to convey that, as gently as possible. I want my clients to be successful.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ken &#8211; don&#8217;t you think that as web designers we have a responsibility to tell the client when something may be a problem?</p>
<p>In this situation, it was not that the changes they wanted weren&#8217;t aesthetic enough for my portfolio. It was that they hired me to help them get their retail business going online, and as a successful online retailer since 1998, in my opinion what they wanted was going to work against them.</p>
<p>I think my responsibility was to try to convey that, as gently as possible. I want my clients to be successful.</p>
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		<title>By: Ken Freeman</title>
		<link>http://www.position-relative.com/2007/01/getting-credited-for-website-projects/comment-page-1/#comment-32</link>
		<dc:creator>Ken Freeman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Mar 2007 18:59:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.position-relative.com/~relat1ve/?p=45#comment-32</guid>
		<description>I find in my experience that the client is &quot;always&quot; the boss.  I am his or her servant.   I must say however, that as we know, &quot;beauty is in the eye of the beholder.&quot;   What you and I think as a web designer is not often the same as what the non techy business owner thinks. Thus, like you I start with a pre-design conference, gather the materials they want used, even suggest a small focus group to help conceptulaize their site and then build three templates to choose from as a starting point.  The client almost always makes changs significantly once the site starts to take shape. But to me, thats not an offense but an opportunity to make him or her happier with me as a vendor.

As I hold their hands, answer their redundant and often elementary ideas, I find that once they trust my judgement, then I can guide them back to a better design or add tools they really need but may not want.   The bottom line is that from the outset we have a scope of a job and budget established. In the agreement, I carefully outline that any substantive changes are cause for additional charges because the new work is outside the original job scope.

In most cases, this is a reason why some of my sites get higher and higher costs.  Not because of charging high fees, but because of the many changes they expect me to work around.

My perspective in such cases is always &quot;the customer knows best&quot; what he or she wants.  My job is to make the web site look like they think it should look.  Too many designers design for their portfolio vs what the client wants or needs.

I think my approach is why many of my clients have been with me for 6 - 10 years, with each having gone through a number of site changes and design changes along the way.  Each change means money in my bank account.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I find in my experience that the client is &#8220;always&#8221; the boss.  I am his or her servant.   I must say however, that as we know, &#8220;beauty is in the eye of the beholder.&#8221;   What you and I think as a web designer is not often the same as what the non techy business owner thinks. Thus, like you I start with a pre-design conference, gather the materials they want used, even suggest a small focus group to help conceptulaize their site and then build three templates to choose from as a starting point.  The client almost always makes changs significantly once the site starts to take shape. But to me, thats not an offense but an opportunity to make him or her happier with me as a vendor.</p>
<p>As I hold their hands, answer their redundant and often elementary ideas, I find that once they trust my judgement, then I can guide them back to a better design or add tools they really need but may not want.   The bottom line is that from the outset we have a scope of a job and budget established. In the agreement, I carefully outline that any substantive changes are cause for additional charges because the new work is outside the original job scope.</p>
<p>In most cases, this is a reason why some of my sites get higher and higher costs.  Not because of charging high fees, but because of the many changes they expect me to work around.</p>
<p>My perspective in such cases is always &#8220;the customer knows best&#8221; what he or she wants.  My job is to make the web site look like they think it should look.  Too many designers design for their portfolio vs what the client wants or needs.</p>
<p>I think my approach is why many of my clients have been with me for 6 &#8211; 10 years, with each having gone through a number of site changes and design changes along the way.  Each change means money in my bank account.</p>
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		<title>By: debbie campbell</title>
		<link>http://www.position-relative.com/2007/01/getting-credited-for-website-projects/comment-page-1/#comment-31</link>
		<dc:creator>debbie campbell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Jan 2007 17:45:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.position-relative.com/~relat1ve/?p=45#comment-31</guid>
		<description>The way that I work is that I meet with a client as a pre-consultation for an hour and a half and we discuss their business, their audience, their budget, look at websites they like and dislike and generally get a good feel for each other.

After this I write up a communication brief to make sure that we&#039;re on the same page. They approve it, then I write up a quote detailing everything we&#039;ve discussed - if they approve that, they sign a contract.

Then I prepare 3-4 layouts based on all of their input. In this case we had another 1.5 hour meeting before I did this to go over likes and dislikes. They sent me links to websites they liked and disliked too and I used all of this information to put together four very different layouts that &#039;emulated walking into their brick-and-mortar store&#039; in one way or another.

I don&#039;t what more I could do to make sure that I understand what a client wants. What they decided to go with was very different than my understanding of what they wanted, and it didn&#039;t meet the criteria they specified all along the way, at least not to my mind.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The way that I work is that I meet with a client as a pre-consultation for an hour and a half and we discuss their business, their audience, their budget, look at websites they like and dislike and generally get a good feel for each other.</p>
<p>After this I write up a communication brief to make sure that we&#8217;re on the same page. They approve it, then I write up a quote detailing everything we&#8217;ve discussed &#8211; if they approve that, they sign a contract.</p>
<p>Then I prepare 3-4 layouts based on all of their input. In this case we had another 1.5 hour meeting before I did this to go over likes and dislikes. They sent me links to websites they liked and disliked too and I used all of this information to put together four very different layouts that &#8216;emulated walking into their brick-and-mortar store&#8217; in one way or another.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t what more I could do to make sure that I understand what a client wants. What they decided to go with was very different than my understanding of what they wanted, and it didn&#8217;t meet the criteria they specified all along the way, at least not to my mind.</p>
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		<title>By: james blair</title>
		<link>http://www.position-relative.com/2007/01/getting-credited-for-website-projects/comment-page-1/#comment-30</link>
		<dc:creator>james blair</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Jan 2007 17:32:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.position-relative.com/~relat1ve/?p=45#comment-30</guid>
		<description>Maybe as a &quot;lesson learned&quot; you could have prodded them more at the beginning to get input so that you would have provided them what they wanted.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe as a &#8220;lesson learned&#8221; you could have prodded them more at the beginning to get input so that you would have provided them what they wanted.</p>
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		<title>By: debbie campbell</title>
		<link>http://www.position-relative.com/2007/01/getting-credited-for-website-projects/comment-page-1/#comment-29</link>
		<dc:creator>debbie campbell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jan 2007 22:23:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.position-relative.com/~relat1ve/?p=45#comment-29</guid>
		<description>I &lt;em&gt;&lt;strong&gt;love&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/em&gt; having clients make input into the design of their site. In fact this is an essential basis for how I work with all of my clients. However, in this case, it was my input that wasn&#039;t wanted.

I can&#039;t share the layout they wanted to use, but frankly, it was not something that I would want potential clients to think that I designed. It was far removed from anything I would conceivably do, and I&#039;d be uncomfortable being tagged as its designer.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I <em><strong>love</strong></em> having clients make input into the design of their site. In fact this is an essential basis for how I work with all of my clients. However, in this case, it was my input that wasn&#8217;t wanted.</p>
<p>I can&#8217;t share the layout they wanted to use, but frankly, it was not something that I would want potential clients to think that I designed. It was far removed from anything I would conceivably do, and I&#8217;d be uncomfortable being tagged as its designer.</p>
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		<title>By: Ken</title>
		<link>http://www.position-relative.com/2007/01/getting-credited-for-website-projects/comment-page-1/#comment-28</link>
		<dc:creator>Ken</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jan 2007 22:00:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.position-relative.com/~relat1ve/?p=45#comment-28</guid>
		<description>As a client, I do not understand why you would not want your clients input into the design of their site.  If you design a site to their specifications, what would keep you from using it as a link from your site. None.

It might not be all your idea, but you design it.  It may have been made using a format designed by someone else, but you have redesigned, enhanced it, tweeked it, and made your clients happy.

Not everyone will like your designs, and everybody has their opinions.  You must adapt to be successful in business.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As a client, I do not understand why you would not want your clients input into the design of their site.  If you design a site to their specifications, what would keep you from using it as a link from your site. None.</p>
<p>It might not be all your idea, but you design it.  It may have been made using a format designed by someone else, but you have redesigned, enhanced it, tweeked it, and made your clients happy.</p>
<p>Not everyone will like your designs, and everybody has their opinions.  You must adapt to be successful in business.</p>
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		<title>By: debbie campbell</title>
		<link>http://www.position-relative.com/2007/01/getting-credited-for-website-projects/comment-page-1/#comment-27</link>
		<dc:creator>debbie campbell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jan 2007 19:56:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.position-relative.com/~relat1ve/?p=45#comment-27</guid>
		<description>Beckie,

Yes, I did get paid for the design work. I kind of felt bad about this whole situation - and the client was apologetic when this matter came up, they didn&#039;t plan on it, it just sort of happened. There&#039;s no blame and no troubles with payment, it&#039;s just that I&#039;m a designer and more interested in that part of it than the backend development work on its own.

I have considering amending my contract to include something about that but I&#039;m not sure how to word it yet.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Beckie,</p>
<p>Yes, I did get paid for the design work. I kind of felt bad about this whole situation &#8211; and the client was apologetic when this matter came up, they didn&#8217;t plan on it, it just sort of happened. There&#8217;s no blame and no troubles with payment, it&#8217;s just that I&#8217;m a designer and more interested in that part of it than the backend development work on its own.</p>
<p>I have considering amending my contract to include something about that but I&#8217;m not sure how to word it yet.</p>
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		<title>By: debbie campbell</title>
		<link>http://www.position-relative.com/2007/01/getting-credited-for-website-projects/comment-page-1/#comment-26</link>
		<dc:creator>debbie campbell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jan 2007 19:51:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.position-relative.com/~relat1ve/?p=45#comment-26</guid>
		<description>Scott - thank you for the food for thought, I get it. In this case, though, I didn&#039;t walk away. The client dumped me, not the other way around. I was willing to continue on the project for just the reason you state - it would have been good backend experience building a store on a cart I hadn&#039;t used before and that was more than fine. And yeah, I&#039;m not happy about losing any client. I&#039;m working about 95% on a referral basis so I put a lot of effort into keeping my clients extremely happy. I will keep your comments in mind in the future.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Scott &#8211; thank you for the food for thought, I get it. In this case, though, I didn&#8217;t walk away. The client dumped me, not the other way around. I was willing to continue on the project for just the reason you state &#8211; it would have been good backend experience building a store on a cart I hadn&#8217;t used before and that was more than fine. And yeah, I&#8217;m not happy about losing any client. I&#8217;m working about 95% on a referral basis so I put a lot of effort into keeping my clients extremely happy. I will keep your comments in mind in the future.</p>
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		<title>By: Scott Brinkerhoff</title>
		<link>http://www.position-relative.com/2007/01/getting-credited-for-website-projects/comment-page-1/#comment-25</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott Brinkerhoff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jan 2007 19:38:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.position-relative.com/~relat1ve/?p=45#comment-25</guid>
		<description>Letâ€™s look at it this way. If it wasn&#039;t about money then you would have done the whole job for free in the first place. Just because they didn&#039;t like your design you felt hurt and wanted to dump the project. I have had this come up a lot in my years of designing, but I have learned that it is all about business. What I like you may not, no big deal. In the end I get paid for it. And even if itâ€™s not your design, you are getting paid to sharpen your backend skills; which is something you wouldn&#039;t do for free anyway. So do the job, get the money and keep a client. They may not have liked this design but what about the next site, or when this site fails because of poor UI? You think they will come back to the person that dumped them over a design? You may be able to walk away from a client, but to me that one client could bring in 10 more in customer referrals because I catered to their needs. For those that WANT to do this for a living, keep the future picture in mind. Right now this is just one small client; but two years from now that one client could turn into 10 BIG clients if you treat them right and provide the service they need. Just food for thought.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Letâ€™s look at it this way. If it wasn&#8217;t about money then you would have done the whole job for free in the first place. Just because they didn&#8217;t like your design you felt hurt and wanted to dump the project. I have had this come up a lot in my years of designing, but I have learned that it is all about business. What I like you may not, no big deal. In the end I get paid for it. And even if itâ€™s not your design, you are getting paid to sharpen your backend skills; which is something you wouldn&#8217;t do for free anyway. So do the job, get the money and keep a client. They may not have liked this design but what about the next site, or when this site fails because of poor UI? You think they will come back to the person that dumped them over a design? You may be able to walk away from a client, but to me that one client could bring in 10 more in customer referrals because I catered to their needs. For those that WANT to do this for a living, keep the future picture in mind. Right now this is just one small client; but two years from now that one client could turn into 10 BIG clients if you treat them right and provide the service they need. Just food for thought.</p>
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		<title>By: Beckie Hawk</title>
		<link>http://www.position-relative.com/2007/01/getting-credited-for-website-projects/comment-page-1/#comment-24</link>
		<dc:creator>Beckie Hawk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jan 2007 18:56:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.position-relative.com/~relat1ve/?p=45#comment-24</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m with you... it does take all the fun out of it to build from someone else&#039;s design.  And, yes, you can farm that part out, but you likely still would have to charge more for the coding if you did.

I hope you were paid for the design work you did on the project. Not to mention the non-billables like meetings or research... the things that we usually build into the whole fee.

Have you considered putting a clause in your contract that clearly states the parameters you are willing to work within in regard to using someone elses design?  This would state your position on this matter from the beginning so you aren&#039;t wasting time designing for someone who is going to micromanage your project to this level.

You could even state that there will be an extra charge when this type of thing happens to cover those non-billables.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m with you&#8230; it does take all the fun out of it to build from someone else&#8217;s design.  And, yes, you can farm that part out, but you likely still would have to charge more for the coding if you did.</p>
<p>I hope you were paid for the design work you did on the project. Not to mention the non-billables like meetings or research&#8230; the things that we usually build into the whole fee.</p>
<p>Have you considered putting a clause in your contract that clearly states the parameters you are willing to work within in regard to using someone elses design?  This would state your position on this matter from the beginning so you aren&#8217;t wasting time designing for someone who is going to micromanage your project to this level.</p>
<p>You could even state that there will be an extra charge when this type of thing happens to cover those non-billables.</p>
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